I think you're no longer talking about only shouts feedback, where i was.

Right now the only sure way to see if the adversary has issued a shout is to watch that tiny little space near the text input in the chat panel. Saying to watch the little dots is nice but let's not forget that in FML we can't watch the match in full detail, we only get parts which can be quite short sometimes. And we'd have to be on the live match tab to see it.(Seriously, please don't tell me you'd be able to see it on the mini-fields on the other tabs :D)
In real life you'd clearly know that a manager has instructed his team to do something else, you might not know what, but at least you'd know for sure that something has changed, in my opinion.

When i mentioned assistants, it was with the meaning that even if you didn't notice something wrong or right with your team, you always have other people near you during a match that can tell you their opinion.

And about being hard to translate statistics to ..hmm.."human language", as a developer myself, i can say that it doesn't(and hasn't) seem to be that hard. We already have an example in the non-Live football manager with the assistant report during matches. That's what it is doing, it is reading the "Home/Away stats" statistical tables and translating them into something anyone can understand.

ANYWAY, this is actually getting long. I have re-subscribed and i am on Fowler too .. if you ever want to continue this over there. Not trying to make other people go away when they see our walls of text :D

(P.S: having this form AFTER the comment list would make it easier for the user to see the comment he is replying to. If you still haven't figured, yes .. i'm anal about all these little things :( :p )

"Because this is supposed to be a tactical battle? Shouldn’t it? I mean, i know that the majority of users play the games at fast speed and don’t care about the tactics as long as they win …easily. But i’m pretty sure i heard Ov say that it was supposed some battle of minds or something.

How do we engage in something like that if we don’t get proper feedback in what we’re doing?"

The feedback is the dots moving around the pitch. I don't see how the game can tell you that something is "working". The ME is far more complex than that, with thousands of variables. The only way you can work out for yourself if it is "working" is by thinking about where the issues are on the pitch and whether your changes have had a positive effect. Now, help in translating the statistics I can understand. But beyond that, the game cannot know whether something is "working" or not - nor can any manager in any walk of life. A tactic that works, wins. That's the simplest feedback. :)

"In my opinion, this statistical information that WE get is a representation of what a real life manager would be seeing in the match field. Let’s not forget the fact that a real life manager would have other people assisting him."

And what do those assistants work on? At the end of the day, learning to read football is the only way you can read how the game is going. No, the manager won't pore over statistical information. He will go on the subjective call of what is going on on the pitch. But the stats help us to see things that may be more intuitive to an experienced football coach.

But again - how can the game tell you if something is working? Other than by reading the stats back to us in a set of bullet points, I don't see how - and these will be contradictory by nature (no tactic does EVERYTHING well). So, at the end of the day, the tactical battle is between the two managers - using their own subjective judgement. That is the battle.

There is no "the" answer - and for that reason, computers will find it very difficult to help you.

YAY .. discussion!

"Why should you? Honestly, why do you think that the game could/should be able to tell you that you made the “right” decision?"

Because this is supposed to be a tactical battle? Shouldn't it? I mean, i know that the majority of users play the games at fast speed and don't care about the tactics as long as they win ...easily. But i'm pretty sure i heard Ov say that it was supposed some battle of minds or something.

How do we engage in something like that if we don't get proper feedback in what we're doing?

"It’s all subjective. A real life manager doesn’t have anything but statistical and subjective info to go on. I don’t see how the game or match engine could give you more information than this."

Ok, i admit, i have no experience as a real life coach/manager but do they rely on statistical information on a game?

In my opinion, this statistical information that WE get is a representation of what a real life manager would be seeing in the match field. Let's not forget the fact that a real life manager would have other people assisting him.

what a load of w***, u fat ****s.

-Platini

"How do we know if the shouts we’ve chose are working? I mean, besides the result or statistics in a totally different panel that will make you not focus on the match field?"

Why should you? Honestly, why do you think that the game could/should be able to tell you that you made the "right" decision?

It's all subjective. A real life manager doesn't have anything but statistical and subjective info to go on. I don't see how the game or match engine could give you more information than this.

This might be a personal opinion, but sporting performance breaks into two sections - the objective; i.e. "did I win or not?" - and the subjective; i.e. "did I play better despite not winning".

The game cannot read everything. Nor can it hand everything to you on a plate. A real life manager has nothing but subjective opinion and stats to go on - and neither should we, imo.

I.M.O, obviously. ;)

I posted this on the SI Games forum thread about the podcast. Hopefully here it will be able to generate some discussion.

*shout feedback & opponent shouts notices*

Should we be paying attention to the match field, to the chat box or to any of the other tabs there? This is just bad, not the shouts, but the way we aren't given any noticeable feedback or able to see if the opponents has used any if we weren't paying attention to some specific part of the screen at a specific time.

How do we know if the shouts we've chose are working? I mean, besides the result or statistics in a totally different panel that will make you not focus on the match field?

*no tactical skills in favor of simplicity*

Simplicity = Good

This is what brought me back to give it a try again. Now spread it around the rest of the game. Stuff like buying and selling players. Stuff like the stadium stuff. Less players scratching their heads and getting annoyed that they don't understand game features = more players staying in the game. See shout feedback part for what not to do.

*update problems*

Despite the "OMGZ FML IS DOMED!" cries that you will ALWAYS get in the official forums when these happen, they are quite normal in this kind of game. Anyone that has played WoW and probably any other MMO will know this to be true. And no disrespect to SI or SEGA but if Blizzard, who has been working on this field since 2001, can't work it out ... well, i think you understand where I'm going with this

*'helpful' users as "staff"*

Nice but having some more official staff in the forums(the public sections, not the beta ones) besides the developers would be nice. Last podcast had Ov saying something that about how the community wouldn't talk to them when things worked and only complained. Why isn't there someone around here polling(not making polls!) users about stuff like that? Polls are bad and useless as a data/opinion gathering tool. And a few questions on a badly made form when the user unsubscribes isn't really the way to do it either, imo. If the user(and i'm not talking about ragequits) got to the point of wanting to unsubscribe, they no longer want to think about your game and you have already lost.

*Ov once again mentions that "there are people who won't say anything" about the new tactic interface*

Well ... have you tried asking them?

And please, not only in the forums. How much of the community is using the forums actively?

We have the General forum with 10k messages, then there's the obvious Technical---oh wait, Bugs Forum with 3k and the rest are a wasteland.

Why isn't there a Suggestions forum? Wouldn't it be easier to filter out which posts are people moaning and which ones are people giving ideas on the game?

And outside the forum, maybe even on the launcher, why isn't there a "How much are you liking the changes on 1.2? Go here or here or there and tell us"?

Why isn't the launcher used for more ? Why isn't the launcher, which is something that a user will ALWAYS see, used as news screen.

Last podcast there was some conversation about how some people would come to the forums asking stuff because they didn't know that the game had been updated. I'm sorry but this is not a problem with the users, this is a problem with the way news or changes to the game are being communicated to the whole community.

I'm guessing that this was posted on footballmanagerlive.com but, do you know why I'm guessing? Because besides going there to signup, transfer GWs or unsubscribe i don't have any other stuff to do there.

*...*

Last part about GW1 : i am kinda of hoping that GW1.com becomes something like WoW Insider ( www.wow.com ) , except with people who actually are able to write, which seems to be the case.

All of this was written as someone who has played on the Beta, knows the game mechanics and played the other version(FM not online) for many years. After the game went live, i decided to try it and lasted around a month before i lost interest and unsubscribed. After a free trial, i'm now going to resub because i think there are some interesting things in the game but i'm still not convinced.

Just trying to give some perspective from where i'm coming from and not to just try to explain that i'm such a special snowflake (Also, because i can't help my inner armchair game designer from coming out )

Cool podcast! Excited to listen to some stadium advices in the next ones :)

Need to get home from work so i can listen to the podcast grrrrrrrrrrrr

It has since been updated. Everything should be fine now. :)

hehe have the same question :D